Derek Foley: faux Christian, actual liar

June 23, 2009 in Political Animals | 32 comments

I’ve been having a running debate discussion exchange with Derek Foley of My Uncommon Sense over the past few weeks. You may recall that Derek deleted all of my comments at his blog for the simple reason that said comments contained far too many inconvenient facts — inconvenient in that they blew away most of the idiotic reasons Derek gave for favoring the use of torture in the War On Terruh®.

The exchange has been taking place in email because Derek Foley simply doesn’t have the courage to conduct a debate discussion exchange of this sort in public. His latest missive in the series is especially educational, as it is a textbook example of a favorite meme amongst the wingnuts: I’m A Christian, And Therefore Everything I Say Must Be True. Have a look at this huge malodorous pile of donkey droppings:

From: Derek Foley <foley.193@osu.edu>
To: “meatbrain@thinkingmeat.net” <meatbrain@thinkingmeat.net>
Date: Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: Yes, Derek Foley is a lying coward


Note how I promised that if you swore again on my site, that I would delete ALL of your comments, not just the ones that contained derogatory language. If you really think that your comments weren’t obscene or derogatory, just take a look at your emails; they are filled with foul language and hate. I really wonder what happened to you as a child to hate so many people simply because they have an understanding of logic and truth. Wait! Can I predict how Terry would respond to my past statement? “I hate you because you are a liar!!!!1!!!!!111!”

Okay, here’s the first lie. Derek has actually made two claims:

1) He deleted all my posts because I used ‘foul language’ (side note: Examples have been found of Derek using the same words he claims are ‘foul language’ in his own posts and comments).

2) He deleted only those posts that he found contained ‘foul language’.

Both claims cannot be true. Derek is clearly lying here.

Too bad you never show any proof of this. Never, in any of my posts, did you show evidence of me lying. Not once. You simply disagreed with my conclusion, and being unable to come up with a logical and truthful notion of your own, you decided to simply ad hominem and, in an essence, lie about my posts to try and discredit them.

Once again, Derek projects his own behavior onto others. Even a cursory reading of the original comment thread (before Derek gutted it) shows that I did, in fact, present specific arguments based upon specific facts that demonstrated the falsity of Derek’s claims. For instance, Derek claimed that waterboarding is legal under US law. In the face of clear evidence that it is not (because the US is a signatory to the UN Conventions Against Torture), Derek’s response was tantamount to a three year old screaming IS TOO!!! IS TOO!!!

As another example, Derek claimed that waterboarding “leaves no lasting physical ailments nor does it cause immense pain”. This was quickly shown to be false. Derek’s response? He conjured a “US method of waterboarding” out of whole cloth, and claimed that somehow, magically, this “US method” was completely harmless — without, of course, ever providing the least shred of evidence that the “US method” even existed.

“Derek Foley hasn’t yet learned that lying is wrong — and he is purporting to teach other people a lesson?”

Of course lying is wrong. I think most people know this. I am a Christian, and I strongly follow Christ’s commandments. He tells me to tell the truth, and nothing but the truth. Therefore, I do.

Here’s the really hilarious part. Derek Foley believes that all he has to do is wave a cross in the air, and he will be utterly immune from any criticism for being the lying dickwad that he is. Here’s a news flash, little boy: “Christians” like you lie through their teeth all the time. As I have shown, there can be no doubt whatsoever that you are a liar. Any claim you may make that you follow the way of Christ is simply another in the long chain of lies you’ve been spewing.

The question is what do you have stopping you from lying? My faith prevents me.

Obviously, Derek’s “faith” does no such thing. Derek Foley is a proven liar. Anyone who needs to depend on some Big Scary Dude in the Sky to stop them from lying simply hasn’t developed a moral code of their own. Clearly, Derek Foley hasn’t got a moral code of his own. And the Big Scary Dude in the Sky doesn’t seem to be doing his job very well.

You have proven time and time again that as long as it isn’t an outright lie, rather it is more of a fib, you believe it to be permissible. You do this by making claims without evidence, presenting a conclusion with no argument.

Of course, we’re supposed to believe Derek here because he is A Pure And Pious Christian Boy Who Would Never Ever Ever Make Shit Up.

Riiiiiiight. As I have already noted, simply reading the original comment thread shows how mendacious this claim of Derek’s truly is.

And in all honestly, I love how you call me a wingnut. The fact of the matter is that a majority of Americans agree with me. On just about everything. From gitmo, to taxes, to abortion, to federalism, to even my conservative ideology, I am in tune with society than you.

BECAUSE! DEREK! SAYS! SO!

As usual, we’re supposed to take Derek’s word for this, sans even the hint of any actual evidence.

So really, you are the wingnut.

Says the lying faux-”Christian” who thinks that torture is a wonderful thing.

Hope you don’t lose much sleep.

Nope. I absolutely love tearing apart lying asswipes of your sort, little boy. Stay stupid now… after all, you really don’t have any other talent, do you?

  1. Derek Foley on June 23, 2009 at 2:40 pm

    ” You may recall that Derek deleted all of my comments at his blog for the simple reason that said comments contained far too many inconvenient facts”

    More because they contained no logic, no facts, and no tact. Show so respect and respect will be given to you.

    ” inconvenient in that they blew away most of the idiotic reasons Derek gave for favoring the use of torture in the War On Terruh®.”

    They all contained some flaw, whether that be that you are ignoring parts of the law or that you are taking a situation out of context, there was something wrong with each of your claims. To refute my responses, you went with your favorite “because derek says so”, even though I gave an ample number of sources to back up my claims.

    “He deleted all my posts because I used ‘foul language’ (side note: Examples have been found of Derek using the same words he claims are ‘foul language’ in his own posts and comments).”

    As I have stated before, I am ok with damn and hell so long as they are not directed at an individual. Your constant use of derogatory language directed at me and others on my site led to the warning, and eventually the removal of your comments.

    “shows that I did, in fact, present specific arguments based upon specific facts that demonstrated the falsity of Derek’s claims.”

    And each had a fatal flaw. You were never able to go beyond your initial statements when I showed how either your reasoning or facts were flawed in some way. Your response, as I can see you use still, was “because derek says so”.

    “In the face of clear evidence that it is not (because the US is a signatory to the UN Conventions Against Torture)”

    The US method of waterboarding isn’t considered torture under the CAT, or under any other convention for that matter.

    “Derek’s response was tantamount to a three year old screaming IS TOO!!!”

    Strawman much? My response was:

    “The Convention’s definition of “torture” does not include all acts of mistreatment causing mental or physical suffering, but only those of a severe nature. According to the State Department’s section-by-section analysis of CAT included in President Reagan’s transmittal of the Convention to the Senate for its advice and consent, the Convention’s definition of torture was intended to be interpreted in a “relatively limited fashion, corresponding to the common understanding of torture as an extreme practice which is universally condemned.” For example, the State Department suggested that rough treatment falling into the category of police brutality, “while deplorable, does not amount to ‘torture’” for purposes of the Convention, which is “usually reserved for extreme, deliberate, and unusually cruel practices … [such as] sustained systematic beating, application of electric currents to sensitive parts of the body, and tying up or hanging in positions that cause extreme pain.””

    ” He conjured a “US method of waterboarding” out of whole cloth, and claimed that somehow, magically, this “US method” was completely harmless — without, of course, ever providing the least shred of evidence that the “US method” even existed.”

    Terry seems to think all waterboarding is the same. How about this:

    “Water boarding as it is currently described involves strapping a person to an inclined board, with his feet raised and his head lowered. The interrogators bind the person’s arms and legs so he can’t move at all, and they cover his face. In some descriptions, the person is gagged, and some sort of cloth covers his nose and mouth; in others, his face is wrapped in cellophane. The interrogator then repeatedly pours water onto the person’s face. Depending on the exact setup, the water may or may not actually get into the person’s mouth and nose; but the physical experience of being underneath a wave of water seems to be secondary to the psychological experience. The person’s mind believes he is drowning, and his gag reflex kicks in as if he were choking on all that water falling on his face.”

    Terry mentioned that the US prosecuted some Japanese officers for war crimes because they waterboarded in WWII. I noted that their method included dunking soldiers in water until they passed out, some even drowning, and force feeding a soldier dry rice then forcing him to drink water, causing his stomach to explode. The US method usually is a step by step process. First just blindfolding the detainee and splashing/pouring water on his face. Then maybe a rag over the face and water being poured. Only at the highest level does water enter the mouth or nose, and the intervals are short enough to prevent any damage to the body. It is unpleasant, but far from “excruciating pain” and harmful.

    “Derek Foley believes that all he has to do is wave a cross in the air, and he will be utterly immune from any criticism for being the lying dickwad that he is.”

    See the language? I guess civility means nothing to Terry. I don’t wave crosses in the air first off. My faith prevents me from doing a lot of things. My faith tells me what to do, not what not to do. I do as I am supposed to and do not lie.

    ““Christians” like you lie through their teeth all the time.”

    And you assume that because on “Christian” lies, that I do as well? I think a more logical response would go along the lines of “banana”. I don’t lie, and you have shown no evidence (other than the strawman stuff you manufactured yourself).

    “As I have shown, there can be no doubt whatsoever that you are a liar.”

    Nope.

    ” Derek Foley is a proven liar.”

    Your manufactured “proof”? Maybe. What the truth is? No.

    “Anyone who needs to depend on some Big Scary Dude in the Sky to stop them from lying simply hasn’t developed a moral code of their own.”

    First off, He isn’t big and scary, nor is he in the sky. I rely on Him for a number of things, and the fact of the matter is that you cannot be moral without Him. Terry is a good example of this.

    “Of course, we’re supposed to believe Derek here”

    Or you can see how he strawmanned the crap out of our discussion and decide whether Terry was bending or breaking the truth.

    “As usual, we’re supposed to take Derek’s word for this, sans even the hint of any actual evidence.”

    Is it too much to ask that you just google it? Why must I spoon feed you Terry?

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/120857/Conservatives-Single-Largest-Ideological-Group.aspx

    http://www.gallup.com/video/120836/Majority-Disapprove-Government-Actions-Bankruptcy.aspx

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/120842/Disapprove-Majority-Government-Ownership.aspx

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/More-Americans-Pro-Life-Than-Pro-Choice-First-Time.aspx

    http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=31747

    “Says the lying faux-”Christian” who thinks that torture is a wonderful thing.”

    I don’t think torture is wonderful in any way. Again, waterboarding isn’t torture under any convention or provision. If you could show me exactly where in the CAT it is listed as torture, that’d be dandy. You are simply going to present something that is either fallacious or irrelevant. Refute my claims, don’t just provide something different in the form of “nuh uh!” Address the claims made and the evidence presented.

    In all honesty, even if we had to torture terrorists (aka the 3 we waterboarded), to save lives here in the US, I would think God would believe it to be justified. It is a large net lives saved and the terrorists had it coming. Of course, I prefer waterboarding because it isn’t torture and it is effective.

    “I absolutely love tearing apart lying asswipes of your sort”

    Language again. Of course, you present no truthful evidence of me lying, nor did you “tear me apart”.

    Terry, how about a challenge? I bet you can’t go a week without swearing or being uncivil. You have to continue the discussions and posts with tact and respect. You win, I’ll make it so that when you comment on my site, your comments don’t automatically go to the spam folder. I win, you admit that you are uncivil and have moral issues.

    Sound good?

  2. Derek Foley on June 23, 2009 at 11:16 pm

    Funny how you delete my comments out of spite, not because I did anything wrong. What’s the matter? Afraid of the truth?

  3. billy Joe on June 24, 2009 at 1:51 am

    He sounds like big dog. Can’t engage in a public debate so he doesn’t allow you to post comments on his blog for some bogus reason like you’re ‘uncivil’.

    Wingnuts are so cowardly… they just hang out in their virtual gated communities riding around with their virtual ‘Internets’ training wheels.

    No wonder they have gotten their asses handed to them in the last two elections. They act like a bunch of insecure, hyper-sensitive crybabies.

    Sidenote, if the thinks waterboarding is harmless, would he allow us to do it to him? If he won’t then I’ll just ignore his assertions on the issue.

  4. meatbrain on June 24, 2009 at 4:26 am

    Derek Foley, as usual, is incapable of understanding simple facts. All comments posted at this blog are held for moderation. None of his comments have been deleted.

    One wonders why Derek finds it necessary to lie so often, and so clumsily.

  5. meatbrain on June 24, 2009 at 8:48 am

    More because they contained no logic, no facts, and no tact.

    It is obvious from even the most cursory perusal of the comments that Derek deleted that said comments do indeed contained facts. See, for instance, here, here, and here. Derek made several feeble attempts to dismiss those facts, but the facts are there. Derek’s claim that I provided no facts is a lie.

    The US method usually is a step by step process. First just blindfolding the detainee and splashing/pouring water on his face. Then maybe a rag over the face and water being poured. Only at the highest level does water enter the mouth or nose, and the intervals are short enough to prevent any damage to the body. It is unpleasant, but far from “excruciating pain” and harmful.

    Derek Foley is again lying. His description of an imaginary technique is a fantasy, and corresponds to no technique that was actually carried out on any detainee. The Bybee memo of 08/01/2002 describes the actual technique as authorized by the Bush administration, and it is not the technique that Derek describes.

    It is also relevant to note that the techniques described in the Bybee memo were not those actually used. A DOJ memo dated 05/10/2005 notes:

    The IG Report noted that in some cases the waterboard was used with far greater frequency than initially indicated, see IG Report at 5, 44, 45,103, 104 and also that it was used in a different manner. See id. at 37 (“The waterboard technique was different from the technique described in the DOJ opinion and used in the SERE training. The difference was in the manner in which the detainee’s breathing was obstructed. At the SERE school and in the DoJ opinion, the subject’s airflow is disrupted by by the firm application of a damp cloth over the air passages; the Interrogator applies a small amount of water to the cloth in a controlled manner. By contrast, the Agency interrogator… applies large volumes of water to a cloth that covered the detainee’s mouth and nose. One of the psychologists/interrogators acknowledged that the Agency’s use of the technique is different than that used by in SERE training because it is ‘for real’ and is ‘more poignant and convincing’.”) The Inspector General further reported that “OMS contends that the expertise of the SERE psychologist/interrogators on the waterboard was probably misrepresented at the time, as the SERE waterboard experience is so so different from the subsequent Agency usage as to make it almost irrelevant. [c]onsequently, according to OMS, there was no a priori reason to believe that applying the waterboard with the frequency and intensity with which it was used by the psychologist/interrogators was either efficacious or medically safe.”

    Further evidence that the waterboarding procedure as approved by the Bush administration can be seen in the fact that the above-mentioned DOJ memo states (page 14):

    ...a detainee could suffer spasms of the larynx that would prevent him from breathing even when the application of water is stopped and the detainee is returned to an upright position. In the event of such spasms, a qualified physician would immediately intervene to address the problem, and, if necessary, the intervening physician would perform a tracheotomy.

    Derek Foley does not explain how it is that a procedure that may necessitate an emergency tracheotomy is not ipso facto harmful.

    I prefer waterboarding because it isn’t torture…

    Derek Foley is also lying when he claims that waterboarding isn’t torture. Waterboarding has already been recognized as torture in US juriprudence, most recently in a 1983 case in which a Texas sheriff and several deputies were prosecuted by the US DOJ for waterboarding suspects:

    [T]he Justice Dept. itself prosecuted a Texas sheriff who had used waterboarding to extract confessions from arrested suspects. Six former inmates testified that they had been waterboarded between 1976 and 1980.

    Some lawyers who participated in that case are still at the Justice Dept. today. None returned calls for comment. In its written opinion affirming the conviction of County Sheriff James Parker, of San Jacinto County, and his deputies, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals in 1984 referred to waterboarding as “torture” a total of 12 times…

    In the Lee case, however, neither the court nor the federal prosecutors appear to have had any question about whether drowning a prisoner just up to the point of death was torture. As the federal appellate court described it, “Lee was indicted along with two other deputies, Floyd Baker and James Glover, and the County Sheriff, James Parker, based on a number of incidents in which prisoners were subjected to a “water torture” in order to prompt confessions to various crimes.”

    Derek does not explain how it is that a technique already established as torture suddenly and magically ceases to be torture.

    And you assume that because on “Christian” lies, that I do as well?

    I assume nothing. Derek Foley is a proven liar, for the simple reason that he makes claims that are not true. He attempts to use his alleged status as a “Christian” as imaginary proof that he does not lie. The facts show otherwise.

    I don’t think torture is wonderful in any way.

    Derek Foley is lying again. As already shown, he is an advocate for torture.

    I bet you can’t go a week without swearing or being uncivil. You have to continue the discussions and posts with tact and respect. You win, I’ll make it so that when you comment on my site, your comments don’t automatically go to the spam folder. I win, you admit that you are uncivil and have moral issues.

    Derek is under the delusion that I am interested in debating with him. I am not. It is in fact impossible to debate someone of Derek’s ilk. Debate requires, at a minimum, that both sides are honest. As we have seen, Derek Foley produces lies at a prodigious rate.

    The proper response to such behavior is to expose his lies for what they are — which is what I will continue to do.

  6. dan l on June 24, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    He is kind of big dogish. I wonder if Derek was in the military. Big Dog believes because he once drove a truck in the military, he is universally skilled in all aspects of civil policy.

    I still don’t understand all the hubub with the waterboarding thing. It is torture. Period.

    I guess torture isn’t a good thing. But then again, the people who were tortured were all bad and given that, I don’t mind looking the other way. It’s not like I’m going to defend it, I simply don’t give a shit about it.

    I am from Chicago, after all.

  7. Derek on June 25, 2009 at 2:02 am

    “would he allow us to do it to him?”

    I’d let the CIA do it, not you.

    “Derek Foley does not explain how it is that a procedure that may necessitate an emergency tracheotomy is not ispo facto harmful.”

    All three terrorists are healthy aren’t they? The techniques used were also applied to our special forces as part of their training. You really think that our own government would harm our troops purposefully? Let alone the fact that Al Qaeda waterboards their operatives in training, hence why many require more than one round.

    “In the Lee case, however, neither the court nor the federal prosecutors appear to have had any question about whether drowning a prisoner just up to the point of death was torture”

    This is different from the methods you and I both have presented. The U.S. doesn’t waterboard prisoners to the point where they almost die nor is it “drowning”. It is simulated drowning, and I would hope for someone of your age to be able to pick up on the difference.

    “Derek Foley is a proven liar, for the simple reason that he makes claims that are not true.”

    Haven’t shown one yet.

    “I don’t think torture is wonderful in any way.

    Derek Foley is lying again. ”

    Are you claiming to know how I feel about certain things? Reading minds now are we, Terry?

    “Debate requires, at a minimum, that both sides are honest. As we have seen, Derek Foley produces lies at a prodigious rate.”

    You say both sides need to be honest then you follow up that sentence with a lie. You cannot simply dismiss a claim you disagree with as a lie, Terry. In all seriousness, it is childish and makes you come off sounding like an idiot. Prove it to be false, and show how each bit of proof fits into the discussion. You have yet to provide any evidence that my statements were in any way wrong. I have shown your logic to be incorrect time and time again, as seen above when you referenced a police department almost killing suspects.

    “I wonder if Derek was in the military.”

    Can’t. I have a bad knee and a worse knee and a bad back. Due to the condition, they won’t take me. I serve my country by promoting policies that are best for all.

    “It is torture. Period. ”

    A majority of America disagrees with you, so really, if you want to make that claim, you have to back it up with something.

    Shall I start the timer Terry? P.s. I put up a new post on the Fed and I am just dying for some feedback.

  8. meatbrain on June 25, 2009 at 6:45 am

    All three terrorists are healthy aren’t they?

    Are they? How would Derek know? Does he have access to the current medical files of the terrorists in question? Let him provide documentary evidence for his claim.

    Note Derek’s evasion here. Derek still cannot explain how it is that a procedure that may necessitate an emergency tracheotomy is not ipso facto harmful.

    The techniques used were also applied to our special forces as part of their training.

    Because! Derek! Says! So! Of course, Derek provides no evidence whatsoever that the waterboarding technique used in SERE training is identical to either the procedure approved in the Bybee memo, or to the procedure as actually used against detainees. We are expected to believe this, apprently, because Derek is a A Pure And Pious Christian Boy Who Would Never Ever Ever Make Shit Up — dspite the fact that Derek has been caught making shit up several times.

    This is different from the methods you and I both have presented.

    Really? How would Derek know this? He has exhibited only extreme ignorance regarding the techniques actually used against detainees in recent years.

    Note that Derek is very careful to ignore the crucial fact: Waterboarding has been acknowledged as a form of torture in US jurisprudence for decades. Suddenly, just because one lying faux-”Christian” torture advocate says so, we are supposed to believe that it is not torture. One is hard-pressed to say whether Derek’s ignorance exceeds his arrogance, or vice versa.

    The U.S. doesn’t waterboard prisoners to the point where they almost die…

    Derek ignores the fact that physicians were on hand, ready to perform emergency tracheotomies. Why would such precautions be necessary, if the waterboarding procedure were entirely safe? Derek doesn’t say. The facts are simply too, too inconvenient for poor widdle Derek. He’ll go right on ignoring them.

    Haven’t shown one yet.

    And Derek continues to lie. His claim that my comments contained no facts is one obvious lie. His description of the waterboarding technique supposedly used on the detainees is another.

    Are you claiming to know how I feel about certain things? Reading minds now are we, Terry?

    Nope. I am reading Derek’s own words. He is an advocate of torture. He simply does not have the balls to admit it.

    You say both sides need to be honest then you follow up that sentence with a lie.

    Derek is lying again. Proof of his mendacity has been presented. His claim that my comments contained no facts is one obvious lie. His description of the waterboarding technique supposedly used on the detainees is another.

    You cannot simply dismiss a claim you disagree with as a lie, Terry.

    I am not dismissing any of Derek’s claims simply because I disagree with them. I am pointing out that Derek’s claims are, in fact, false. Derek Foley is a liar.

    One must wonder why Derek addresses me as ‘Terry’. He has certainly shown a propensity for making shit up out of whole cloth. Here, he does it again.

    You have yet to provide any evidence that my statements were in any way wrong.

    Derek is lying yet again. I have provided ample evidence that he has made false statements. His claim that my comments contained no facts is one obvious lie. His description of the waterboarding technique supposedly used on the detainees is another.

    I have shown your logic to be incorrect time and time again, as seen above when you referenced a police department almost killing suspects.

    What Derek did was to ignore outright the fact that waterboarding has been acknowledged as a form of torture in US jurisprudence for decades. That’s not “show[ing] [my] logic to be incorrect”. That’s blatant intellectual cowardice.

    Once again: Derek Foley is a proven liar. He will continue to lie. And I will continue to expose his lies for what they are.

  9. Derek Foley on June 25, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    “Note Derek’s evasion here. Derek still cannot explain how it is that a procedure that may necessitate an emergency tracheotomy is not ipso facto harmful.”

    May but was never needed. You neglect that the chance is slim to none, and it would require extremely prolonged periods of waterboarding (and a good amount of water to be forced down the trachea) to cause a laryngospasm (also known as choking and then coughing for prolonged periods). It goes away typically after a minute or so, and rarely requires much more than an oxygen mask. I have never heard of someone needing a tracheotomy for a laryngospasm, but rather they’d probably give them a muscle relaxant just like they would for any other severe muscle spasm.

    Hey Terry, did you know eating can cause the need for a tracheotomy too? Maybe we shouldn’t feed them, it is too dangerous.

    http://www.lucianne.com/thread/?artnum=475114

    Be back later, as I actually have a life.

  10. meatbrain on June 25, 2009 at 1:54 pm

    You neglect that the chance is slim to none…

    Derek Foley, faced with a fact he cannot counter, does what all lying wingnuts do in this case: he pulls a fantasy out of his ass, and presents it as “fact”. From what statistical study of victims of waterboarding does Derek conclude that “the chance is slim to none”? None whatsoever. Our faux-”Christian” is once again Making Shit Up As He Goes.

    It goes away typically after a minute or so, and rarely requires much more than an oxygen mask.

    Derek the geology major undoubtedly knows this from his years of medical training. ROTFLMAO!

    I have never heard of someone needing a tracheotomy for a laryngospasm…

    Yet we know for a fact that doctors were on hand, ready to perform an emergency tracheotomy. How unfortunate that they did not consult Dr. Derek Foley, internationally-renowned expert on laryngospasm. They could have saved a tremendous amount of time and money.

    This laughable little fabulist will lie about anything, folks.

  11. Derek on June 25, 2009 at 5:50 pm

    “Derek Foley, faced with a fact he cannot counter, does what all lying wingnuts do in this case: he pulls a fantasy out of his ass, and presents it as “fact”. From what statistical study of victims of waterboarding does Derek conclude that “the chance is slim to none”? None whatsoever. ”

    Except the fact that most people experience laryngospasm on a monthly basis. Hell, it happened to me in the pool today. Unpleasant, and made me phlegmy, but I caught my breath a minute later. You are trying to make something into the worst case scenario. I have never heard of anyone needing a tracheotomy because water went down the wrong tube. For those of you who don’t know, Terry is referring to a larynx spasm, aka laryngospasm, which occurs when water or food begins to go down your trachea as opposed to your esophagaus. This happens to people all the time when swimming, drinking, and eating. Coughing and sputtering ensue, followed by the gaining of breath and saying the obvious phrase “it went down the wrong tube”. Never ever have I heard of anyone needing a tracheotomy, as the easier solution would be to give the patient a muscle relaxant or oxygen. Terry is trying to make a medically irrelevant procedure seem routine in order to make waterboarding sound worse than it already is.

    “Derek the geology major undoubtedly knows this from his years of medical training. ”

    I was premed prior to being geo-sci and poli-sci w/ prelaw. I still love medicine and regularly read medical journals and textbooks. If you don’t believe me look up laryngospasm and check to see if I am right. Hold on:

    “The symptoms are very characteristic.

    * Abrupt, sudden onset
    * May occur anytime, but often noticable when eating and talking simultaneously and something feels like it went down the wrong way
    * May be awakened in the middle of the night unable to breath.
    * I personally have had it happen while camping, when a tiny bug flew down my throat.
    * Feels like you are going to die or never breathe again
    * Yet typically, it lasts less than 30 or 60 seconds.
    * Very noisy and difficult “breathing in”
    * Rather easy breathing out, still able to cough.
    * Faster “breathing in” makes it worse.

    Botulinum toxin, injected into the muscles causing the spasms, may be used to decrease or eliminate (at least for a period of a few months) frequent laryngospasms.”

    Laryngospasm happens suddenly and usually lasts 30 to 60 seconds. During this time, you may experience great difficulty breathing through the upper airways in your voice box (larynx). Though laryngospasm can be frightening, your vocal cords eventually relax without causing serious problems.

    There’s no effective medication to relax the vocal cords more quickly. However, sitting down and trying to relax your whole body during an episode may speed recovery. ”

    http://www.voicedoctor.net/therapy/laryngospasm.html

    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/laryngospasm/an01215

    The doctors agree with me, not Terry. Apparently laryngospasms can also be caused by GERD (gastroesophageal reflux disease, you’ve probably seen commercials about it). With patients who frequently experience laryngospasms, they may put a tracheostomy button in the throat that is capped which can be opened during a spasm. This is probably where the tracheotomy claim comes from, but it is important to note that they are laryngospasms with two different causes. One is from the erosion of the esophagus and the other is due to the intrusion of water or liquid into the trachea. Again, never would anyone who has been waterboarded need to have their throat cut open. Oxygen and muscle relaxants can take care of all symptoms, if they even get to that point.

    “Yet we know for a fact that doctors were on hand, ready to perform an emergency tracheotomy.”

    Is that what they were there for? I thought they were there to monitor the detainee and tell when the waterboarding was meant to stop need be. That and to administer oxygen if necessary. And if you are going to make something up, can’t I just as easily say that they were there to give muscle relaxants? I know they were there to monitor the detainees, but to give a tracheotomy is ridiculous. Never would anyone need a tracheotomy for water entering their trachea.

    “Dr. Derek Foley, internationally-renowned expert on laryngospasm”

    I am honored, really. But it seems that my argument has the medical field’s backing, along with a great deal of truth. You are making claims based on a single testimony which contains numerous flaws (as I have pointed out, i.e. someone needing a tracheotomy for water as opposed to GERD).

    Yet again, I prove Terry to be an idiot who claims all who disagree with him to be liars, despite the plethora of sources and arguments they make.

  12. Derek on June 25, 2009 at 5:50 pm

    It seems that my comment was listed as spam. Look for it for me, would you Terry?

  13. Derek Foley on June 26, 2009 at 9:21 pm

    No word on them being caught in the spam folder? Did you list my comments as spam Terry just so you wouldn’t be proven wrong?

  14. meatbrain on June 26, 2009 at 9:36 pm

    If Derek, or anyone else, believes that one of their comments has been misclassified as spam, all they need do is to email me with the pertinent details.

    I have recovered all the misclassified comments that I can find. If there are more, please let me know.

  15. Adam on June 26, 2009 at 9:37 pm

    I love it when wingnuts call you Terry. They seem so proud of themselves, despite there being no single shred of evidence to suggest such a thing.

  16. meatbrain on June 26, 2009 at 9:54 pm

    Except the fact that most people experience laryngospasm on a monthly basis.

    Derek Foley, faced with a fact he cannot counter, does what all lying wingnuts do in this case: he pulls a fantasy out of his ass, and presents it as “fact”. From what statistical study of laryngospasm does Derek conclude that “most people experience laryngospasm on a monthly basis”? None whatsoever.

    I was premed prior to being geo-sci and poli-sci w/ prelaw.

    Evidence of this? None whatsoever. Notice how Derek conveniently claims whatever “expertise” is needed for a given “argument”.

    With patients who frequently experience laryngospasms, they may put a tracheostomy button in the throat that is capped which can be opened during a spasm. This is probably where the tracheotomy claim comes from…

    Derek demonstrates, once again, that he is simply incapable of paying attention. The Bradbury memo of 05/10/2005 states:

    ...a detainee could suffer spasms of the larynx that would prevent him from breathing even when the application of water is stopped and the detainee is returned to an upright position. In the event of such spasms, a qualified physician would immediately intervene to address the problem, and, if necessary, the intervening physician would perform a tracheotomy.

    I did not invent the claim that doctors were on hand to perform tracheotomies if necessary. Inventing fantasies is Derek’s schtick. The US Government has provided documentary evidence that they expected to need such medical intervention.

    Derek ignores the fact that physicians were on hand, ready to perform emergency tracheotomies. Why would such precautions be necessary, if the waterboarding procedure were entirely safe? Derek doesn’t say. The facts are simply too, too inconvenient for poor widdle Derek. He’ll go right on ignoring them.

    I thought they were there to monitor the detainee and tell when the waterboarding was meant to stop need be.

    See above. Derek is simply too mouth-breathingly stupid to read and understand the facts.

    Again, never would anyone who has been waterboarded need to have their throat cut open.

    BECAUSE! DEREK! SAYS! SO! The arrogance of an ignorant lying child is amazing, is it not? Derek Foley is a proven liar, and yet he still expects that his every fantasy will be accepted as gospel.

    Here’s the bottom line: Derek Foley still lacks the balls to admit that the US Government found that waterboarding was medically dangerous enough to warrant physicians standing by to perform tracheotomies. That’s pure intellectual cowardice, folks.

  17. Derek Foley on June 27, 2009 at 3:06 am

    “They seem so proud of themselves, despite there being no single shred of evidence to suggest such a thing”

    Am I not the only one?

    “From what statistical study of laryngospasm does Derek conclude that “most people experience laryngospasm on a monthly basis”? None whatsoever.”

    Ever swallow water but it ends up going down your trachea? And then you cough and cough and cough and it feels like you cant get enough air and it is hard to breathe in? That is a laryngospasm. Happened to me the other day when I was in the pool. Other times it could be due to food getting caught in the throat. Other causes can be due to allergies, medicines, poisons, etc. Mild laryngospasms are very very common, and I guarantee Terry has had one (aka MB).

    “Evidence of this? None whatsoever. Notice how Derek conveniently claims whatever “expertise” is needed for a given “argument”.”

    Lol seriously? You want evidence of my preprofessional? Technically I am still listed as premed because I haven’t determined whether I want a double major or a dual degree. I never claimed to have any expertise, I merely claimed to have a basic understanding of simple medical jargon. Note how I provided evidence from medical websites to back up my claims.

    “I did not invent the claim that doctors were on hand to perform tracheotomies if necessary. Inventing fantasies is Derek’s schtick. The US Government has provided documentary evidence that they expected to need such medical intervention.”

    Oh my, you truly are a liar and idiot.

    Here is what I said shortly after the part you quoted: “Apparently laryngospasms can also be caused by GERD (gastroesophageal reflux disease, you’ve probably seen commercials about it). With patients who frequently experience laryngospasms, they may put a tracheostomy button in the throat that is capped which can be opened during a spasm. This is probably where the tracheotomy claim comes from, but it is important to note that they are laryngospasms with two different causes. One is from the erosion of the esophagus and the other is due to the intrusion of water or liquid into the trachea. Again, never would anyone who has been waterboarded need to have their throat cut open. Oxygen and muscle relaxants can take care of all symptoms, if they even get to that point.”

    TWO DIFFERENT CAUSES. TWO DIFFERENT LARYNGOSPASMS. There is no reason for a tracheotomy if water has entered the trachea. Tracheotomies are reserved for foreign obstructions (aka something solid, i.e. hotdog), GERD, and those who experience severe laryngospasms on a frequent basis. I have already explained this, but MB, knowing he is corned and has been proven false, goes ahead and LIES.

    “Derek ignores the fact that physicians were on hand, ready to perform emergency tracheotomies.”

    Show me a shred of evidence stating they were there for tracheotomies. Obviously, if the state of the detainee isn’t monitored and something goes awry, the effects could be awful. Hence why medical personnel were on hand to stop the interrogation should something not be right. Also, should they experience a laryngospasm (which I doubt they suffered a moderate or severe one as it is water and it is only applied for a short amount of time), the doctor could give muscle relaxants or administer oxygen.

    That is what the facts show, seeing as how a person who has a laryngospasm due to the intrusion of water into the trachea wouldn’t need a tracheotomy. Are you saying they were there to perform an unnecessary procedure? Next thing you know, Terry will be saying the medical personnel were there to deliver babies.

    “Why would such precautions be necessary, if the waterboarding procedure were entirely safe? Derek doesn’t say. The facts are simply too, too inconvenient for poor widdle Derek. He’ll go right on ignoring them.”

    I already explained. Twice. If you are having trouble understand, try reading my comments twice.

    “BECAUSE! DEREK! SAYS! SO! The arrogance of an ignorant lying child is amazing, is it not?”

    I already gave multiple sources showing when tracheotomies are necessary for laryngospasms. No where does it say for water entering the trachea. Do you show any evidence that water intrusion could cause a severe laryngospasm that could necessitate a tracheotomy? No. I have multiple reliable medical sources baking my claims, you have nothing.

    I explain again and again and again. I provide multiple sources over and over and over. I can only conclude that MB is too stubborn to accept truth. Either that or he is too stupid.

    Stubborn and ardent clinging to one’s opinion is the best proof of stupidity.

  18. meatbrain on June 27, 2009 at 6:02 am

    Ever swallow water but it ends up going down your trachea? And then you cough and cough and cough and it feels like you cant get enough air and it is hard to breathe in? That is a laryngospasm. Happened to me the other day when I was in the pool. Other times it could be due to food getting caught in the throat. Other causes can be due to allergies, medicines, poisons, etc. Mild laryngospasms are very very common, and I guarantee Terry has had one (aka MB).

    Yap yap yap yap yap. Notice that Derek chooses to utterly ignore the question: From what statistical study of laryngospasm does Derek conclude that “most people experience laryngospasm on a monthly basis”?

    Lol seriously? You want evidence of my preprofessional?

    Yes. Derek Foley is a proven liar. His unsupported assertions are worthless.

    I have already explained this, but MB, knowing he is corned and has been proven false, goes ahead and LIES.

    Yet Derek is unable to cite the specific statement I have made that he claims is false.

    Show me a shred of evidence stating they were there for tracheotomies.

    I have already done so. Derek Foley, being the dishonest cowardly pissant that he is, chooses to ignore that evidence.

  19. Derek Foley on June 27, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    “From what statistical study of laryngospasm does Derek conclude that “most people experience laryngospasm on a monthly basis”?”

    Do I need a study to know that the sun rises once a day? How about if I say “most people tie their shoes at least once per day”? I already explained how laryngospasms are common, but of course, you use the fallacy of moving goalpost to try and call me a liar.

    “Lol seriously? You want evidence of my preprofessional?

    Yes.”

    Well unfortunately it isn’t listed under the “find people” on OSU’s website, so again, you are asking me to prove something that I cannot do. Unless of course you’d like to email my family and as them or ask my friends. But of course, you will probably end up calling them liars. I was premed, but I didn’t like chemistry all that much. I was microbio and premed, and planned on either going into research on parasites or being a radiologist (I like physics). Note how my claims match up with all of my other claims. If I were a liar, at some point, they would contradict. To quote Abraham Lincoln: I am not intelligent enough to be a successful liar.

    “Yet Derek is unable to cite the specific statement I have made that he claims is false.”

    Hey look, another lie. Here you go:

    “I did not invent the claim that doctors were on hand to perform tracheotomies if necessary. Inventing fantasies is Derek’s schtick. The US Government has provided documentary evidence that they expected to need such medical intervention.”

    Oh my, you truly are a liar and idiot.

    Here is what I said shortly after the part you quoted: “Apparently laryngospasms can also be caused by GERD (gastroesophageal reflux disease, you’ve probably seen commercials about it). With patients who frequently experience laryngospasms, they may put a tracheostomy button in the throat that is capped which can be opened during a spasm. This is probably where the tracheotomy claim comes from, but it is important to note that they are laryngospasms with two different causes. One is from the erosion of the esophagus and the other is due to the intrusion of water or liquid into the trachea. Again, never would anyone who has been waterboarded need to have their throat cut open. Oxygen and muscle relaxants can take care of all symptoms, if they even get to that point.”

    I proved that you lied. Again.

    “I have already done so. Derek Foley, being the dishonest cowardly pissant that he is, chooses to ignore that evidence.”

    From that same memo:

    ”[T]ecIulique.specific advanced approval is required for all “enhanced” measures and is ‘conditional on on-site medical and psychological personnel confirming from direct detainee examination that the enhanced technique(s) is not exPected to produce “severe physical or mental pain or suffering.’” As a practical.matter, the detainee’s physical cendition must be such that these interventions will not have’ lasting effect, and his psychological state strength enough that no severe psychological harm will result.”

    “Third, it is conceivble (though, we understand from OMS, highly unlikely) that a detainee could suffer spasm of the larynx that would prevent him from breathing even when the application of water stopped and the detainee is returned to an upright position. In the event of such Spasms, a qualified physician would immediately intervene to -address the problem, and, if necessary, the intervening physician would perform a tracheotomy. ”

    Note how they say unlikely, but they never give a source for where they obtained the tracheotomy info. My guess is they googled “laryngospasm” and looked under “treatments”. Of course, I have already proven using reliable medical sources stating that tracheotomies are reserved for the most severe laryngospasms (usually caused by a foreign solid object) and for patients with GERD or other ailment that causes frequent laryngospasms.

  20. meatbrain on June 28, 2009 at 6:15 am

    Do I need a study to know that the sun rises once a day? How about if I say “most people tie their shoes at least once per day”?

    Translation: Derek Foley cannot provide a single shred of evidence for his claim.

    Again.

    I already explained how laryngospasms are common, but of course, you use the fallacy of moving goalpost to try and call me a liar.

    Derek made a specific claim about laryngospasms: that most people experience laryngospasm on a monthly basis. It turns out that Derek was once again pulling a fantasy out of his own ass and presenting it as a “fact”.

    Well unfortunately it isn’t listed under the “find people” on OSU’s website, so again, you are asking me to prove something that I cannot do.

    Surprise! Derek Foley made a claim he cannot support with facts.

    To quote Abraham Lincoln: I am not intelligent enough to be a successful liar.

    When did anyone say that Derek Foley was a successful liar?

    “Yet Derek is unable to cite the specific statement I have made that he claims is false.”

    Hey look, another lie. Here you go:

    “I did not invent the claim that doctors were on hand to perform tracheotomies if necessary. Inventing fantasies is Derek’s schtick. The US Government has provided documentary evidence that they expected to need such medical intervention.”

    Oh my, you truly are a liar and idiot.

    Oh my, Derek Foley has yet to demonstrate that anything I have said is a lie. Quoting himself isn’t proof of anything but his deep-seated narcissism.

    I proved that you lied. Again.

    Derek Foley just proved himself to be a liar. Again.

  21. Derek Foley on June 28, 2009 at 7:21 pm

    “Translation: Derek Foley cannot provide a single shred of evidence for his claim.”

    I cannot procure a study that has never occurred, which means you are asking me to provide an amount of evidence that can never be provided, ergo, you are using the logical fallacy of the moving goalpost. I have already explained how laryngospasms are common and how most people experience them on a frequent basis. Whether you choose to ignore the fact that I have explained this twice over now is entirely up to you, but saying I am unable to prove my statement because I am unable to procure a study makes you seem childish and demanding. You don’t see me demanding that you procure a study on how often waterboarding causes laryngospasms, do you? How about I demand that you find me a study showing that waterboarding can cause laryngospasms.

    “that most people experience laryngospasm on a monthly basis. It turns out that Derek was once again pulling a fantasy out of his own ass and presenting it as a “fact”.”

    I never claimed that I was concrete, but rather is an estimation. It is a well known fact that laryngospasms are common, as I have already explained. In the same way I can say that most people are in a car at least a couple times a week, I can say that most people experience a laryngospasm every now and again. Or do you want a study showing how often people tie their shoes?

    “Derek Foley made a claim he cannot support with facts.”

    Moving goalpost, and seeing as how I am the person and my family and friends can all back it up, yes I can. I asked if you would like their emails. I was premed, but am now geo sci + poli sci + prelaw.

    “When did anyone say that Derek Foley was a successful liar?”

    If I know I am unable to succeed then why would I try? Now you have a problem finding a motive. Also, I have yet to be proven false, while I have destroyed most, if not all, of your erroneous claims.

    “Quoting himself isn’t proof of anything but his deep-seated narcissism.”

    Good Lord. You said I was unable to show which claim you made was false. I provided my comment to show that I did indeed show exactly where the claim was false and why. Ergo, you lied.

  22. meatbrain on June 29, 2009 at 7:36 am

    I cannot procure a study that has never occurred, which means you are asking me to provide an amount of evidence that can never be provided, ergo, you are using the logical fallacy of the moving goalpost.

    Translation: Derek Foley made a claim he cannot substantiate, and it’s ALL SOMEONE ELSE’S FAULT! WAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!

    As usual, Derek is proud to demonstrate that he utterly rejects any responsibility for his own actions.

    I have already explained how laryngospasms are common and how most people experience them on a frequent basis.

    BECAUSE! DEREK! SAYS! SO!

    He was pre-med, you know! Just ask him! He can be an expert in anything you want to talk about!

    I never claimed that I was concrete, but rather is an estimation.

    Based on what? Nothing but Derek’s need to invent phony “facts” for his argument, that’s what.

    It is a well known fact that laryngospasms are common…

    BECAUSE! DEREK! SAYS! SO!

    He was pre-med, you know! Just ask him! He can be an expert in anything you want to talk about!

    Moving goalpost…

    False. It’s a fact that Derek made a claim he cannot support with facts.

    If I know I am unable to succeed then why would I try?

    Derek Foley was stupid enough to lie in the first place. He’s certainly stupid enough to think he’d be successful at it.

    Also, I have yet to be proven false, while I have destroyed most, if not all, of your erroneous claims.

    And so Derek pulls another Big Lie out of his ass. It must be getting pretty raw from all that traffic. I sure hope Derek’s mommy has lots of Desitin on hand.

  23. Derek Foley on June 29, 2009 at 4:50 pm

    “Derek Foley made a claim he cannot substantiate”

    I substantiated it already, I just cannot provide the proof you are asking for, hence moving goalpost.

    “BECAUSE! DEREK! SAYS! SO!”

    To anyone who would like to check, scroll up a few comments.

    “It’s a fact that Derek made a claim he cannot support with facts.”

    Then you must provide me with a study that shows waterboarding can cause laryngospasms that would require tracheotomies.

    “Derek Foley was stupid enough to lie in the first place.”

    Translation: drool UHHHHhhhhh insert trademarked response here

  24. meatbrain on June 30, 2009 at 8:26 am

    I substantiated it already…

    Really? Look carefully at Derek’s barf above. He claimed that it is a “fact that most people experience laryngospasm on a monthly basis”. Where is the proof he claims to have provided for this claim?

    Derek has not provided proof. He’s provided a lot of cut’n’paste bafflegab about the causes of laryngospasm, but not a speck of evidence to support his claim about its frequency.

    Derek Foley is lying about having presented evidence that supports his claim.

    Then you must provide me with a study that shows waterboarding can cause laryngospasms that would require tracheotomies.

    Why? I made no such claim. What I did was to point out that the US Government felt it was necessary to have doctors on hand to perform an emergency tracheotomy should a waterboarding session go wrong. Derek Foley has yet to explain why a procedure as harmless as he seems to believe waterboarding is would require such extraordinary precautions.

    And let us not lose sight of the points that I originally made in my post:

    1. Derek Foley lied about his reason for deleting my commenst at his blog. He allows profanity. He does not allow facts that are inconveniently contradictory to his claims.
    2. Derek Foley lied about the alleged “US method of waterboarding”. The method he conjured out of thin air bears no resemblance to any technique that was actually employed by US interrogators.
    1. Derek Foley actually tried to sell the laughable claim that simply because he is a “Christian”, he cannot possibly lie.

  25. Derek on July 1, 2009 at 1:19 am

    Had a comment, forgot to put name,email, web, so it didn’t go through. Too tired to comment again. Tomorrow.

  26. Derek on July 1, 2009 at 10:35 pm

    “Where is the proof he claims to have provided for this claim?”

    Within the reasoning that you continue to ignore.

    “Why? I made no such claim.”

    MB: “Derek Foley does not explain how it is that a procedure that may necessitate an emergency tracheotomy is not ipso facto harmful.”

    Liar.

    “What I did was to point out that the US Government felt it was necessary to have doctors on hand to perform an emergency tracheotomy should a waterboarding session go wrong.”

    You did try and make this claim but you provided no evidence in support of it.

    “Derek Foley has yet to explain why a procedure as harmless as he seems to believe waterboarding is would require such extraordinary precautions.”

    Liar.

    Me: ”[T]ecIulique.specific advanced approval is required for all “enhanced” measures and is ‘conditional on on-site medical and psychological personnel confirming from direct detainee examination that the enhanced technique(s) is not exPected to produce “severe physical or mental pain or suffering.’” As a practical.matter, the detainee’s physical cendition must be such that these interventions will not have’ lasting effect, and his psychological state strength enough that no severe psychological harm will result.”

    “Is that what they were there for? I thought they were there to monitor the detainee and tell when the waterboarding was meant to stop need be. That and to administer oxygen if necessary. And if you are going to make something up, can’t I just as easily say that they were there to give muscle relaxants? I know they were there to monitor the detainees, but to give a tracheotomy is ridiculous. Never would anyone need a tracheotomy for water entering their trachea.”

    I’ve explained over and over what the medical personnel were there for.

    “Derek Foley lied about his reason for deleting my commenst at his blog. He allows profanity. ”

    I do not allow shit, bitch, fuck, ass, or any racial slurs on my blog. Hell and damn are allowed so long as they aren’t directed at an individual. I have deleted MB’s comments because I warned him about his vulgarity but he chose not to listen. I deleted one other comment that contained the word “shit”.

    “He does not allow facts that are inconveniently contradictory to his claims.”

    Check my site, there are plenty of people who disagree with me and their comments stay up. Know why? Because they are civil.

    “Derek Foley lied about the alleged “US method of waterboarding”. The method he conjured out of thin air bears no resemblance to any technique that was actually employed by US interrogators.”

    The “evidence” you provided that “contradicted” my claim actually agrees with the method I stated previously.

    “Derek Foley actually tried to sell the laughable claim that simply because he is a “Christian”, he cannot possibly lie.”

    I was noting that I have reason to not lie, while MB shows he has no restraint.

  27. meatbrain on July 2, 2009 at 1:40 pm

    Within the reasoning that you continue to ignore.

    “Reasoning” isn’t proof. Facts are proof.

    I will rephrase: Where are the facts that prove Derek’s claim that “most people experience laryngospasm on a monthly basis”? Simply declaring it a “fact”, as Derek did, doesn’t cut it. Show us the actual facts, little boy.

    Liar.

    Idiot. Derek is clearly too stupid to distinguish between a challenge and a statement of fact. I issued the former, not the latter.

    You did try and make this claim but you provided no evidence in support of it.

    False. I have already documented the fact that the US Government felt it was necessary to have doctors on hand to perform an emergency tracheotomy should a waterboarding session go wrong.

    Derek is lying again. That’s what Derek Foley does: he lies.

    I’ve explained over and over what the medical personnel were there for.

    Derek’s fantasies simply do not match the facts: The US Government says that the medical personnel were there to perform emergency tracheotomies, if necessary.

    Derek Foley just cannot stop lying about this fact.

    I have deleted MB’s comments because I warned him about his vulgarity but he chose not to listen.

    Derek Foley is lying. He deleted my comments for the simple reason that said comments contained far too many inconvenient facts — inconvenient in that they blew away most of the idiotic reasons Derek gave for favoring the use of torture in the War On Terruh®.

    The “evidence” you provided that “contradicted” my claim actually agrees with the method I stated previously.

    This is Derek’s description of the “US method” of waterboarding:

    First just blindfolding the detainee and splashing/pouring water on his face. Then maybe a rag over the face and water being poured. Only at the highest level does water enter the mouth or nose, and the intervals are short enough to prevent any damage to the body.

    Derek Foley is lying again. His description of this imaginary technique is a fantasy, and corresponds to no technique that was actually carried out on any detainee. The Bybee memo of 08/01/2002 describes the actual technique as authorized by the Bush administration, and it is not the technique that Derek describes.

    It is also relevant to note that the techniques described in the Bybee memo were not those actually used. A DOJ memo dated 05/10/2005 notes:

    The IG Report noted that in some cases the waterboard was used with far greater frequency than initially indicated, see IG Report at 5, 44, 45,103, 104 and also that it was used in a different manner. See id. at 37 (“The waterboard technique was different from the technique described in the DOJ opinion and used in the SERE training. The difference was in the manner in which the detainee’s breathing was obstructed. At the SERE school and in the DoJ opinion, the subject’s airflow is disrupted by by the firm application of a damp cloth over the air passages; the Interrogator applies a small amount of water to the cloth in a controlled manner. By contrast, the Agency interrogator… applies large volumes of water to a cloth that covered the detainee’s mouth and nose. One of the psychologists/interrogators acknowledged that the Agency’s use of the technique is different than that used by in SERE training because it is ‘for real’ and is ‘more poignant and convincing’.”) The Inspector General further reported that “OMS contends that the expertise of the SERE psychologist/interrogators on the waterboard was probably misrepresented at the time, as the SERE waterboard experience is so so different from the subsequent Agency usage as to make it almost irrelevant. [c]onsequently, according to OMS, there was no a priori reason to believe that applying the waterboard with the frequency and intensity with which it was used by the psychologist/interrogators was either efficacious or medically safe.”

    Oh, what was that last bit?

    *”...there was no a priori reason to believe that applying the waterboard with the frequency and intensity with which it was used by the psychologist/interrogators was either efficacious or medically safe.”*

    Derek Foley is lying when he claims that the “US Method” of waterboarding posed no danger to the detainees upon whom it was used.

    Derek Foley is lying when he claims that the evidence I have presented “actually agrees with the method [he] stated previously”.

    That’s what Derek Foley does: he lies.

    I was noting that I have reason to not lie, while MB shows he has no restraint.

    I am utterly uninterested in Derek’s alleged reasons for not lying. The facts show that Derek Foley does, in fact, lie.

  28. Derek on July 7, 2009 at 2:10 am

    “Reasoning isnt proof. Facts are proof.”
    Reasoning can determine facts. Transitive law.

    ” Where are the facts that prove Dereks claim that most people experience laryngospasm on a monthly basis?”
    I gave factual statements about what a laryngospasm is and then used reasoning, something foreign to you, to reach a conclusion and make an estimate.

    “False. I have already documented the fact that the US Government felt it was necessary to have doctors on hand to perform an emergency tracheotomy should a waterboarding session go wrong.”
    That is the same document you presented before. Again, they provide no source for the statement that waterboarding could cause laryngospasms. Not only that, but they do mention that doctors are there for the very same purposes that I mentioned above. So you don’t whine, I’ll ctrl c ctrl v.
    ME:[T]ecIulique.specific advanced approval is required for all enhanced measures and is conditional on on-site medical and psychological personnel confirming from direct detainee examination that the enhanced technique(s) is not exPected to produce severe physical or mental pain or suffering. As a practical.matter, the detainees physical cendition must be such that these interventions will not have lasting effect, and his psychological state strength enough that no severe psychological harm will result.

    “The US Government says that the medical personnel were there to perform emergency tracheotomies”
    Actually, they never state this specifically as a reason. The memo you provided says that it is a possibility, but list no source. I have already showed that a tracheotomy would be unnecessary for a laryngospasm caused by water entering the trachea. And yes, I did back it up with multiple medical references. Did the memo back up their claim? Nope.

    “He deleted my comments for the simple reason that said comments contained far too many inconvenient facts”
    Has anyone ever told you that you are incredibly arrogant and wrong?

    ” Derek gave for favoring the use of torture in the War On Terruh”
    Too bad it isn’t defined as torture by any convention or provision.

    “escribes the actual technique as authorized by the Bush administration, and it is not the technique that Derek describes.”
    Read it, they are the same. And there are multiple steps, as the memo only describes one level.

    “OMS contends that the expertise of the SERE psychologist/interrogators on the waterboard was probably misrepresented at the time, as the SERE waterboard experience is so so different from the subsequent Agency usage as to make it almost irrelevant.”
    TO MAKE IT ALMOST IRRELEVANT. Note, you have presented no evidence to show that the three detainees were ever harmed in any way by waterboarding. Also note how there are countless other accounts saying waterboarding is harmless.

  29. meatbrain on July 8, 2009 at 6:57 am

    Reasoning can determine facts. Transitive law.

    Translation: When Derek Foley doesn’t have the facts to back up his claims, he will make shit up, call it “reasoning”, and then pretend that his lies are facts.

    Yes, folks, he really is that stupid.

    And also. Derek loves to. Pretend that. Sentence fragments. Are some. Sort of. Coherent argument.

    I gave factual statements about what a laryngospasm is and then used reasoning, something foreign to you, to reach a conclusion and make an estimate.

    Translation: Derek doesn’t have any facts to back up his claim. Therefore, he expects us to accept his invented wild-ass guess (which he euphemistically refers to as an ‘esitmate’) as Revealed Truth.

    Yes, folks, he really is that stupid.

    I will ask again, so that we can all enjoy the spectacle of Derek Foley dodging the question again:

    Where are the facts that prove Derek’s claim that “most people experience laryngospasm on a monthly basis”?

    Not only that, but they do mention that doctors are there for the very same purposes that I mentioned above.

    Not only that, but I have already documented the fact that the US Government felt it was necessary to have doctors on hand to perform an emergency tracheotomy should a waterboarding session go wrong. Derek Foley wants everybody to pretend that this fact hasn’t been established.

    Yes, folks, he really is that stupid.

    As a practical matter, the detainee’s physical cendition must be such that these interventions will not have lasting effect, and his psychological state strength enough that no severe psychological harm will result.

    BECAUSE! DEREK! SAYS! SO! But then, we already know that Derek Foley makes shit up out of thin air and pretends that he has posted “facts”.

    Yes, folks, he really is that stupid.

    Actually, they never state this specifically as a reason.

    Actually, Derek Foley is lying again. The DOJ memo of 05/10/2005 states specifically that the medical personnel attending a torture session would be expected to perform a tracheotomy (page 14):

    ...a detainee could suffer spasms of the larynx that would prevent him from breathing even when the application of water is stopped and the detainee is returned to an upright position. In the event of such spasms, a qualified physician would immediately intervene to address the problem, and, if necessary, the intervening physician would perform a tracheotomy.

    Derek Foley can’t deal with honestly with this fact, so he simply lies.

    Too bad it isn’t defined as torture by any convention or provision.

    Derek Foley is lying when he claims that waterboarding isn’t torture. Waterboarding has already been recognized as torture in US jurisprudence, most recently in a 1983 case in which a Texas sheriff and several deputies were prosecuted by the US DOJ for waterboarding suspects:

    [T]he Justice Dept. itself prosecuted a Texas sheriff who had used waterboarding to extract confessions from arrested suspects. Six former inmates testified that they had been waterboarded between 1976 and 1980.

    Some lawyers who participated in that case are still at the Justice Dept. today. None returned calls for comment. In its written opinion affirming the conviction of County Sheriff James Parker, of San Jacinto County, and his deputies, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals in 1984 referred to waterboarding as “torture” a total of 12 times…

    In the Lee case, however, neither the court nor the federal prosecutors appear to have had any question about whether drowning a prisoner just up to the point of death was torture. As the federal appellate court described it, “Lee was indicted along with two other deputies, Floyd Baker and James Glover, and the County Sheriff, James Parker, based on a number of incidents in which prisoners were subjected to a “water torture” in order to prompt confessions to various crimes.”

    Derek does not explain how it is that a technique already established as torture suddenly and magically ceases to be torture.

    Read it, they are the same.

    Derek Foley is lying again. His description of this imaginary technique is a fantasy, and corresponds to no technique that was actually carried out on any detainee. The Bybee memo of 08/01/2002 describes the actual technique as authorized by the Bush administration, and it is not the technique that Derek describes.

    And there are multiple steps, as the memo only describes one level.

    Derek Foley is lying again. The memo points out that the technique as authorized by the DOJ was not the technique actually used on the detainees.

    Also note how there are countless other accounts saying waterboarding is harmless.

    Derek Foley is lying again. His “countless other accounts” are fantasies like his own, hand-waving horseshit unsupported by facts.

    This is what “Christian” Derek Foley does, folks. He lies, lies, lies some more, makes shit up, and then lies to try to cover his lies. It is clear by now that Derek Foley’s lying is so deepseated as to be pathological in nature.

  30. ice9 on July 12, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    a useful backgrounder on waterboarding as torture in US law, with cits.  Lots of cits.
     
    ice
     
    http://usiraq.procon.org/sourcefiles/background_information_waterboarding.pdf

  31. Derek on July 12, 2009 at 6:19 pm

    “Translation: When Derek Foley doesn’t have the facts to back up his claims, he will make shit up, call it “reasoning”, and then pretend that his lies are facts.”
     
    You have yet to attempt to dismantle my reasoning, so as of now, it still stands.  You cannot simply write it off as “sh!t”.  If it is so wrong, go through and explain how it is inaccurate.  You have failed miserably to do so thus far.
     
    “And also. Derek loves to. Pretend that. Sentence fragments. Are some. Sort of. Coherent argument.”
     
    Because. Meatbrain. Says. So.
     
    “Not only that, but I have already documented the fact that the US Government felt it was necessary to have doctors on hand to perform an emergency tracheotomy should a waterboarding session go wrong.”
     
    And I have already shown from that very same memo that they said they were there for other purposes.  When they mention trachotomies, they do not provide a source nor do they explain the necessity of such a procedure.  This is the third or fourth time I have explained this.  Meathead is a bit thick.
     
    “BECAUSE! DEREK! SAYS! SO! But then, we already know that Derek Foley makes shit up out of thin air and pretends that he has posted “facts”
     
    Oh this truly is ironic.  That exerpt is from your memo that you keep blathering about MB.  Yes, it is.  I quoted it.  You call it BS and move on, even though it is from your source!  If there is clear-cut proof that you are a moron and a coward, this is it.
     
    “Actually, Derek Foley is lying again. The DOJ memo of 05/10/2005 states specifically that the medical personnel attending a torture session would be expected to perform a tracheotomy (page 14):”
     
    And provide no source.  I have already proven that water entering the trachea wouldn’t require a tracheotomy, but instead GERD would require the tracheotomy.  MB is bound to say “because derek says so!”.  Scroll up a few comments and look for where I provided links to medical websites as well as an in depth explanation as to why waterboarding would never require a traceotomy.  This is the fourth or fifth time I have explained this.  MB has yet to attack my reasoning.
     
    “Derek Foley is lying when he claims that waterboarding isn’t torture. Waterboarding has already been recognized as torture in US jurisprudence, most recently in a 1983 case in which a Texas sheriff and several deputies were prosecuted by the US DOJ for waterboarding suspects:”
     
    Not all waterboarding is the same, and there is a big difference between a US citizen and an unlawful combatant.  Their rights are not the same.
     
    “In the Lee case, however, neither the court nor the federal prosecutors appear to have had any question about whether drowning a prisoner just up to the point of death was torture.”
     
    See, that is nothing like the procedure that the CIA uses to waterboard suspects.  No one is being drowned.  MB has presented links to the method used by the CIA and it is nothing like this.  Weak analogy, just another fallacy made by meathead.
     
    “His description of this imaginary technique is a fantasy, and corresponds to no technique that was actually carried out on any detainee. The Bybee memo of 08/01/2002 describes the actual technique as authorized by the Bush administration, and it is not the technique that Derek describes.”
     
    And you fail to show how they are different.  Again.  Meathead, becoming intellectually bankrupt, decides to say “nuh uh!”
     
    “The memo points out that the technique as authorized by the DOJ was not the technique actually used on the detainees.”
     
    Quote it.
     
    “His “countless other accounts” are fantasies like his own, hand-waving horseshit unsupported by facts.”
     
    Because I am the only one who says waterboarding isn’t torture.  MB again fails the common sense test.
     
     

  32. meatbrain on July 14, 2009 at 7:52 am

    You have yet to attempt to dismantle my reasoning, so as of now, it still stands.

    Derek Foley is lying again. He deleted ::mirror(“myuncommonsense20090604195317/#comments”, “all comments that I made on his blog” ):: precisely because I dismantled his “reasoning”.

    If it is so wrong, go through and explain how it is inaccurate.

    I have done exactly that, both in ::mirror(“myuncommonsense20090604195317/#comments”, “the comments at Derek Foley’s blog” )::, and here. Derek is using the Big Lie technique: keep repeating the lie and hope that it will be believed.

    I have already proven that water entering the trachea wouldn’t require a tracheotomy…

    Derek is, of course, trying to divert the discussion away from his obvious lie. Derek’s claim was that the DOJ “never state[d] [emergency tracheotomies] specifically as a reason” for the presence of physicians during a waterboarding session. Yet the DOJ memo of 05/10/2005 clearly and specifically states that the medical personnel attending a torture session would be expected to perform a tracheotomy (page 14):

    ...a detainee could suffer spasms of the larynx that would prevent him from breathing even when the application of water is stopped and the detainee is returned to an upright position. In the event of such spasms, a qualified physician would immediately intervene to address the problem, and, if necessary, the intervening physician would perform a tracheotomy.

    Derek Foley can’t deal with honestly with this fact, so he simply lies.

    Derek Foley is a proven liar. He will just have to put up with being reminded constantly of this fact.